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	<title>Comments for Groping towards Bethlehem</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Economics and culture in bite-sized pieces</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 03:33:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Strangling research in its crib [revised] by Andrew</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/05/20/strangling-research-in-its-crib/#comment-2822</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 03:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1878#comment-2822</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Bill, the cronyism that exists in this landscape is plainly embarrassing. When I imagine the process followed by Freud, Darwin, Mendel etc... I think they would be embarrassed by our system as well. Will they ever remember the purpose: discovery.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bill, the cronyism that exists in this landscape is plainly embarrassing. When I imagine the process followed by Freud, Darwin, Mendel etc&#8230; I think they would be embarrassed by our system as well. Will they ever remember the purpose: discovery.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Give the drummer some by Bill</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/give-the-drummer-some/#comment-2809</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 May 2013 00:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1864#comment-2809</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, excellent to see the metaphor extended. I was thinking in the funk vein, but you raise a good question. Sometimes we are rock drummers, keeping it all together and driving the tempo of the research. Sometimes, the modelling becomes the featured performance -- look how a few tweaks make the model dance and sing! It depends a bit on the band, doesn&#039;t it? If you&#039;ve got others who can keep the structure going without losing focus, then you can put your effort into experimentation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, excellent to see the metaphor extended. I was thinking in the funk vein, but you raise a good question. Sometimes we are rock drummers, keeping it all together and driving the tempo of the research. Sometimes, the modelling becomes the featured performance &#8212; look how a few tweaks make the model dance and sing! It depends a bit on the band, doesn&#8217;t it? If you&#8217;ve got others who can keep the structure going without losing focus, then you can put your effort into experimentation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Give the drummer some by Bill</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/give-the-drummer-some/#comment-2808</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 May 2013 00:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1864#comment-2808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are far too kind, Andrew! No, I haven&#039;t heard that one, although I think Tom Waits is great. I&#039;ll have to go find it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are far too kind, Andrew! No, I haven&#8217;t heard that one, although I think Tom Waits is great. I&#8217;ll have to go find it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Preferences for avoiding death by Safety preferences &#124; The Dismal Science</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/preferences-for-avoiding-death/#comment-2807</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Safety preferences &#124; The Dismal Science]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 May 2013 23:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1845#comment-2807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] compensation bundles with higher monetary income and fewer on-the-job amenities like safety.    Bill Kaye-Blake takes issue with Yglesias&#039;s analysis.&#160;He writes:    It may look on the surface like Yglesias is being all ‘realist’ and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] compensation bundles with higher monetary income and fewer on-the-job amenities like safety.    Bill Kaye-Blake takes issue with Yglesias&#039;s analysis.&nbsp;He writes:    It may look on the surface like Yglesias is being all ‘realist’ and [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Give the drummer some by Chris Parker</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/give-the-drummer-some/#comment-2806</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Parker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 May 2013 21:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1864#comment-2806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah drumming, nice post Bill. Now the question becomes: are you rock drummers or jazz drummers? 

A good rock drummer tends to play the role of a band conductor (driving intensity, coordination), whereas in jazz the bass player does some of that allowing the top drummers to become free-wheeling stars. 

So which of those are ya? Will the scientists and other professions be taking a lead from your work do you think, or will be stealing their limelight?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah drumming, nice post Bill. Now the question becomes: are you rock drummers or jazz drummers? </p>
<p>A good rock drummer tends to play the role of a band conductor (driving intensity, coordination), whereas in jazz the bass player does some of that allowing the top drummers to become free-wheeling stars. </p>
<p>So which of those are ya? Will the scientists and other professions be taking a lead from your work do you think, or will be stealing their limelight?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Give the drummer some by Andrew</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/give-the-drummer-some/#comment-2805</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 May 2013 21:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1864#comment-2805</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Without a doubt you are the coolest economist I know. On music have you caught &quot;cold water&quot; off Tom Waits Mule Variations album?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without a doubt you are the coolest economist I know. On music have you caught &#8220;cold water&#8221; off Tom Waits Mule Variations album?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Metaphor of student as customer by Grant Taylor</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/metaphor-of-student-as-customer/#comment-2798</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grant Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2013 23:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1853#comment-2798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Having been a student during the early phases in NZ of the &#039;modernisation&#039; of university culture, I remember clearly the concern among students at the time of the withdrawal of universities from acting as &#039;kindly old aunts and uncles&#039; who only want the best for their young charges to more demanding, stentorian figures (of course, the rhetoric was not couched in quite these terms). 

It seemed to me that what was being overlooked was that generally (in those days anyway) most students commenced university at 18 years of age and still had a lot of growing up to do. Many were living away from home for the first time and as much of their &#039;education&#039; was about life skills as it was about scholarly subjects - in the classroom, as you note, but largely outside of it. 

This feeling was reinforced when I went to do postgraduate study in Germany; the students were 2-3 years older on commencing university and had done some of the growing up in compulsory civil or military service. They were ready to provide the classroom with relatively undivided attention. The oversight of and demands upon the students by the university was minimal. Assignments and exams seemed to be more a matter of &#039;exercises&#039; to prompt the students and provide them with feedback rather than examine their performance on a criterion. It seemed to be simply assumed that the students were there to learn, that is what they would do, and at the end of their studies, they would be more educated. 

Simply put, the students were not treated as either consumers or funding-related FTEs and their education was not treated as a product. It struck me as a healthy relationship between mature adults.

Commercialising relationships and emphasising extrinsic motivations can erode what is most important in relationships - responsibility, commitment, obligation, and good faith. When the relationships are trivial, such as many situations involving  a buyer and seller in a marketplace, that might not be a great loss but I suggest that the relationship between students and their teaching institutions is far from trivial.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been a student during the early phases in NZ of the &#8216;modernisation&#8217; of university culture, I remember clearly the concern among students at the time of the withdrawal of universities from acting as &#8216;kindly old aunts and uncles&#8217; who only want the best for their young charges to more demanding, stentorian figures (of course, the rhetoric was not couched in quite these terms). </p>
<p>It seemed to me that what was being overlooked was that generally (in those days anyway) most students commenced university at 18 years of age and still had a lot of growing up to do. Many were living away from home for the first time and as much of their &#8216;education&#8217; was about life skills as it was about scholarly subjects &#8211; in the classroom, as you note, but largely outside of it. </p>
<p>This feeling was reinforced when I went to do postgraduate study in Germany; the students were 2-3 years older on commencing university and had done some of the growing up in compulsory civil or military service. They were ready to provide the classroom with relatively undivided attention. The oversight of and demands upon the students by the university was minimal. Assignments and exams seemed to be more a matter of &#8216;exercises&#8217; to prompt the students and provide them with feedback rather than examine their performance on a criterion. It seemed to be simply assumed that the students were there to learn, that is what they would do, and at the end of their studies, they would be more educated. </p>
<p>Simply put, the students were not treated as either consumers or funding-related FTEs and their education was not treated as a product. It struck me as a healthy relationship between mature adults.</p>
<p>Commercialising relationships and emphasising extrinsic motivations can erode what is most important in relationships &#8211; responsibility, commitment, obligation, and good faith. When the relationships are trivial, such as many situations involving  a buyer and seller in a marketplace, that might not be a great loss but I suggest that the relationship between students and their teaching institutions is far from trivial.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Preferences for avoiding death by Eric Crampton (@EricCrampton)</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/preferences-for-avoiding-death/#comment-2797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Crampton (@EricCrampton)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1845#comment-2797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Posted now. I think that the information asymmetry among western consumers roughly offsets that western consumers are prone to doing really stupid things that they think are helpful. The criminal behaviour - that&#039;s something different.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Posted now. I think that the information asymmetry among western consumers roughly offsets that western consumers are prone to doing really stupid things that they think are helpful. The criminal behaviour &#8211; that&#8217;s something different.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Preferences for avoiding death by Bill</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/preferences-for-avoiding-death/#comment-2796</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1845#comment-2796</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure, I understand this thinking -- and thanks for the lucid explanation. Effective demand for a bundle of compensation plus safety should create its own supply, if the bundle is feasible. Well-meaning regulations could have the perverse impacts of specifying an unfeasible bundle.

But I think that once you add in information asymmetry (companies not being clear about how their products are made -- and even lying about it in some cases), protectionist international rules about who can work where at which occupation, and criminal behaviour, the explanation for the factory collapse isn&#039;t a simple as &#039;poor people die at work -- get over it&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, I understand this thinking &#8212; and thanks for the lucid explanation. Effective demand for a bundle of compensation plus safety should create its own supply, if the bundle is feasible. Well-meaning regulations could have the perverse impacts of specifying an unfeasible bundle.</p>
<p>But I think that once you add in information asymmetry (companies not being clear about how their products are made &#8212; and even lying about it in some cases), protectionist international rules about who can work where at which occupation, and criminal behaviour, the explanation for the factory collapse isn&#8217;t a simple as &#8216;poor people die at work &#8212; get over it&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Preferences for avoiding death by Eric Crampton (@EricCrampton)</title>
		<link>http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/preferences-for-avoiding-death/#comment-2795</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Crampton (@EricCrampton)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Apr 2013 23:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/?p=1845#comment-2795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm. I&#039;m mostly with Yglesias on this one: choice spaces are endogenous to effective preferences. Were there greater effective worker demand for a compensation bundle with more safety and less salary, more firms would provide that bundle. But I will put reasonable weight on that the firm&#039;s apparent ignoring of the safety regs could have had real negative effects where the workers thought that the regs were a binding floor: they then would have been taking unknown and uncompensated risks. 

Now you&#039;re offered two options.

A. Western retailers inspect plants and provide workers with accurate information about actual risks at the firm, so that workers can negotiate the appropriate total compensation bundle and sort to the firm providing the most-preferred bundle;

B. Western retailers enforce binding safety floors.

&#039;A&#039; causes problems where workers can&#039;t be made to understand the real risks; &#039;B&#039; causes problems where workers put more value on income than on risk reduction. 

I suppose that the choice between A and B depends on whether you think the floor in B is set to match the likely preferences of workers, or whether it&#039;s set by American lobbyists to price out the competition. I tend to prefer A.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I&#8217;m mostly with Yglesias on this one: choice spaces are endogenous to effective preferences. Were there greater effective worker demand for a compensation bundle with more safety and less salary, more firms would provide that bundle. But I will put reasonable weight on that the firm&#8217;s apparent ignoring of the safety regs could have had real negative effects where the workers thought that the regs were a binding floor: they then would have been taking unknown and uncompensated risks. </p>
<p>Now you&#8217;re offered two options.</p>
<p>A. Western retailers inspect plants and provide workers with accurate information about actual risks at the firm, so that workers can negotiate the appropriate total compensation bundle and sort to the firm providing the most-preferred bundle;</p>
<p>B. Western retailers enforce binding safety floors.</p>
<p>&#8216;A&#8217; causes problems where workers can&#8217;t be made to understand the real risks; &#8216;B&#8217; causes problems where workers put more value on income than on risk reduction. </p>
<p>I suppose that the choice between A and B depends on whether you think the floor in B is set to match the likely preferences of workers, or whether it&#8217;s set by American lobbyists to price out the competition. I tend to prefer A.</p>
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